Post by Pam on Sept 14, 2008 22:13:45 GMT -5
Gah, I really really REALLY didn't want to post a long post here, coz frankly, I've better things to do (A Levels )
BUT, I can't seem to hold myself back. The Ultimate Pammy Downfall, she's too outspoken .
Okay, I'll start with a nice long post now. However, I'd love it, if the other posters (not naming names here) Would be so kind as to follow the laws of The English Language and to keep to the simple rules of Paragraphing, Namely, One Point Per Paragraph. So that we don't have to draw lines all over the place. Cheers ^^.
First and Foremost, Allow me to address SKOT first. (Those of you who's reading and who's not SKOT, and doesn't want to read a longer than normal post, please skip ahead 4 Paragraphs)
SKOT, Please be less over-sensitive. Not every comment hold hidden wrath for you. I know 'Nerd' Pretty well, and he's a good friend of mine, and he's been referring himself as a nerd for a very long time. Both him and I spend WAY too much time online than is healthy. I don't believe he was trying to make fun of you. That being said, you're a mature and (hopefully) sensible adult. It dishearten me to see you so stressed out and put down by mere teens.
However, age doesn't give you the right to make our choices for us. You mentioned about 'choice' and how there's a 'choice' between right and wrong. Yet, you're taking away this 'choice' away from us when you deem Homosexuality wrong. Some of us have made the choice to love a member of the same gender. Some of us made the choice not to condemn, and to show love and understanding to those people. You're trying to change our choice, to make those in relationships to break up, because you deem it "wrong", and to make those of us supporting our friends to stop it, because YOU find it "Wrong". It shows you as a close-minded individual, one who's not willing to listen to other viewpoints before you discard them totally.
There can be only one being that can totally and absolutely tell us what's wrong, a being of higher power. By that, I'm referring to the one commonly known as "GOD" (Whatever your religion is). Just Remember, the Road to Hell is paved with Good Intentions. (No, I'm not saying that you're going to hell, its just a saying. If you don't get it, assume I placed it there for the fun of it. I do things like that). Other than a Heavenly voice descending upon us to tell us to steer away from Homosexuality, there can be nobody that can tell us, beyond all reasonable doubt, that homosexuality is wrong. Also, I believe that the bible has been misquoted so many times that there is no sure way of knowing EXACTLY what the bible wants unless you know Hebrew and is one of the 12 disciples.
Also, you've been insulting Sam and her friends a fair deal. I'm not too sure how best for an adult to get through to a teenager (After all, I've not had a teenage offspring yet), but as a teenager, I can tell you, that force, insults and general "I'm right, you're wrong" behaviour, is NOT the best way. Actually, my bad, it is the best way. Its the absolute best way, to alienate a teen. Not only a teen, its the absolute best way, to alienate anybody. So lets refrain from personal insults like the mature people we all are, teens and adults alike. Put aside the arrogance, on who's better in English (Like Sam mentioned, just because we're Asian and from Singapore doesn't mean we don't have a good command in English. And to go off topic slightly, I help my Australian, American and British friends to edit their essays all the time) and who is more arrogant/right/wrong/whatever. We're not here to blow our own horns, we're here to discuss this topic of homosexuality. (BTW... "And I am articulate, soulful, well read, informed, knowledgeable, inquisitive, poetic and fluent.......and right !" - Quoted from SKOT is called blowing your own horn)
Okay, now, to dive straight into the mainframe of my post. (Sorry sorry, its gonna be a long one. One worthy of my A level GP Paper >.<)
To clear some misconceptions, nobody is getting "Blind Drunk" or "High'Stoned". We're not discussing alcoholism, We're not discussing the effects and use of drugs. We're discussing Homosexuality. Homosexuality is not linked to Drugs or Alcohol. There are many homosexuals who do not indulge in either. So lets stay on topic, and not make broad biased generalization about the lifestyles of homosexuals.
Also, Nobody, is being Tricked/Forced/Bribed/Blackmailed/Fooled/[Insert Another Synonym here] into supporting friends. Some of my friends are homosexual, and that has NEVER stopped them from giving me support or vice versa. I'm not defending my friends just because they're my friends. But also because I feel that there's alot of misconceptions and generalization surrounding the topic of homosexuality and that they're being unjustly prosecuted for a 'crime' that doesn't exist.
I noticed that this forum, so far, has a fair bit of anti-lesbianism, with the main focus being on girls. What about the guys? We can't leave them out! How about we stop focusing on girls as cute, innocent, pigtailed beings, and focus on Homosexual as a whole? To focus on only lesbianism and not on the gays, is being biased and sexist. Its being arrogant, to assume that males can get away with it and thus, all the heat must be on girls. Its also arrogant and blind, to assume that all girls are innocent and cute and possibly blond pigtailed, on the inside. Most of those girls that are so generically portrayed, are what I call Blond Plastic Bimbos. So lets do everybody a favour and not keep rehashing what 'proper females' are supposed to be like. Innocent, Polite, Modest, Humble, Meek, Submissive to men, Loves Cock etc... We're a diverse society, not a "Add water and mix" carbon copy of what is 'supposed' to be.
Also, I see the word "Indulgent" pop up a few times. That it's being indulgent to engage in homosexual relationships. If that's indulgent, what's sex? o.0. Last time I checked, Human beings have sex for the pleasure. We're one species, apart from Dolphins and Apes (and some other animals I can't remember atm) that engage in sexual behaviour for pleasure. Main reason in the biological sense, is that human females aren't obvious when ovulating (unless you count PMS =P). So, how is homosexual behaviour 'indulgent' at all? Its love, its compassion and its caring. If Homosexuality is 'Indulgent', well, so is sex, and so is eating (most of us don't eat to live anymore, we have all these nice food to indulge in), and so is so many more things. So unless Sex becomes a minor operation in which to conceived a baby and if homosexuality is an indulgent choice/past-time/whatever, then its not all that out of place from the materialistic, self-serving society we're in nowadays.
Samantha has kindly set up this board, so that we can easily communicate. She does not set up her blog and this forum board, as a method to 'promote' lesbianism. We all like debates here, so that's what we'll do. We're not going to point fingers and make wild accusations. Her blog does not consist of 100% Pro-Lesbianism Ads and Campaigns. Its for her to document what she wants. Just like most other blogs are. Trying to read all her posts in a "OMG! ITS PROMOTING LESBIANISM!" way and skewing her posts isn't exactly healthy for anybody, much less fair to Sam.
Also, there's been no reliable source brought to this blog. Since its all personal opinion so far. There's no point saying that you've all the sources in the world, if you do not prove it. You'll need to show the actual source rather than rattle off it 2nd hand. If you just rattle off it, everybody assumes that you take parts of the source, and twist it to your wishes.
" religious, theological and spiritual scripture, every scientific, natural, biological, psychological and medical textbook, every history book, time tested wisdom, conscience, morality, nature, biology, all social and cultural mores, fundamental human nature, our own true mind, soul and conscience." (Quoted from SKOT again)
I'll now rebut a few of SKOT's points on his unnamed sources on why homosexuality is NOT bad. I'm not promoting homosexuality, and I'm not denouncing it. I'm doing what I do best, Sit on the Fence and play both sides.
Religious, Theological and Spiritual scriptures, I'll not even bother. There's so much speculation and debate going on about the reliability of those sources, as well as a number of atheist and agnostics in the world, that I'm not gonna add fuel to THAT Fire. We're not arguing religion here (Even though Religion is a point in the whole debate here).
Scientific - There has never been any scientific proof why Homosexuality is 'bad' and 'harmful'. I'd welcome you to post a few links, or books we may read that is unbiased, and backed with ONLY Scientific proof on why homosexuality is bad.
Natural/Biological - Bonobos, us homosexual behaviour as part of social male bonding. Black Swans, are sometimes homosexual, with male pairing/mating formed. They steal nests, or engage with a threesome with a female, for the eggs. There's quite a few animals in nature that engage in Homosexuality behaviour. I'm not saying it "proves" that homosexuality is "Normal" and "Natural". I'm just saying you can't use the Natural/Biological argument, because animals do it too. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals)
Biological/Medical - The male's prostate gland is located somewhere up his asshole. Therefore, males enjoy anal sex (which female can't exactly give, lacking the right equipment, so other males take over => Gay people => Homosexual People). There is nothing medically wrong with having gay sex, aside from the fact that no biological offspring can be produced. But if its kids you want, you'd better of campaigning against Contraceptives. (http://www.askmen.com/dating/heidi/23_love_secrets.html)
Psychological - Most of us, gravitate towards those we feel safest with. That's why we find that there are some people, we find attractive, and there are some that we don't. Those that we find attractive, generally will have some physical attributes to those that has helped you in the past. Which is why some of us notice some resemblance towards all the crushes we had, be it physical or personality-wise. The only psychological harm to homosexuality, is the reaction of others, and the level of acceptance in self and society.
History - Did you know that most great civilization of the past, The Ancient Egyptian, Ancient Romans, the Aztecs etc, are bisexual? Amazing isn't it? Its only the not-so-old British aristocrats that bring about all these close legged sexual nonos. Why? Because the British Aristocrats pass down their land and titles to their offspring, through the father's line. Hence, women were meant to remain virgins till marriage, to be 100% Sure that they're 'untainted' and that they know EXACTLY who the father was. Whereas men were allowed to be promiscuous. This was seen in the Chinese Arranged Marriage as well. It reminds me of horse breeding, where the mare wasn;t allowed to be mounted except for by the one you want to mate her with. The Greeks used Sex to attain a moment with god. They worship Aphrodite via sex with her priests. Matriarchal society has women having sex whenever they want, because its WAY easier know who the mother was, rather than the father. Point is, history is very promiscuous. If you read past the high school censored textbooks, and watch the history channel once in a while, or research upon history, you'll find that history is FILLED with homosexuality, bisexuality, incest, gang rapes, promiscuous sex etc. Wonder why people are so "Conservative" now. Like I said, I believe it stems from the British Aristocracy, and it spread due to the fact that 'peasants' would like to act like them.
I'm not even gonna bother to contradict the rest unless stated WHAT those 'sources' say. To provide me with a general topic is for me to rebut them without even knowing what I'm rebutting.
I'll just say that yes, I agree that compassion stated in the bible does not indicate for us to lay down and be trodden. But I don't see how homosexuality would need us to act like a human sacrifice. If you're homosexual, you try to find a love from the same gender who is homosexual, and if you're not, you have a much wider pool of people to choose from. There are a hell lot more straight people than there are homosexuals or bisexuals, so I *Really* don't see how it affects you on a biological/social level. If a girl rejects you due to the fact that she's homosexual, just find somebody else. Treat it as what it is, the girl's not interested. Don't blame all homosexuals to high heavens. If I was to reject a guy approaching me because I already have a Boyfriend, I really don't expect the rejected guy to curse my boyfriend to high heavens, then try to murder my boyfriend in hopes of getting me.
Compassion in the bible (if you want to quote the bible) applies to homosexuals. We do NOT have the right to assume who can receive God's love and who shouldn't. Only God can decide that. We do NOT have the right to condemn individuals based on what WE think is correct.
Since when is loving somebody else selfish, conceited and harmful? Better to love than not to love at all.
Okay! Done! Long post OOOOVER! There's more that I can write, but I spent over an hour typing this, and I want to eat lunchie =P.
BTW, Sammy and Cara, HAPPY ANNIVERSARY! XD.
BUT, I can't seem to hold myself back. The Ultimate Pammy Downfall, she's too outspoken .
Okay, I'll start with a nice long post now. However, I'd love it, if the other posters (not naming names here) Would be so kind as to follow the laws of The English Language and to keep to the simple rules of Paragraphing, Namely, One Point Per Paragraph. So that we don't have to draw lines all over the place. Cheers ^^.
First and Foremost, Allow me to address SKOT first. (Those of you who's reading and who's not SKOT, and doesn't want to read a longer than normal post, please skip ahead 4 Paragraphs)
SKOT, Please be less over-sensitive. Not every comment hold hidden wrath for you. I know 'Nerd' Pretty well, and he's a good friend of mine, and he's been referring himself as a nerd for a very long time. Both him and I spend WAY too much time online than is healthy. I don't believe he was trying to make fun of you. That being said, you're a mature and (hopefully) sensible adult. It dishearten me to see you so stressed out and put down by mere teens.
However, age doesn't give you the right to make our choices for us. You mentioned about 'choice' and how there's a 'choice' between right and wrong. Yet, you're taking away this 'choice' away from us when you deem Homosexuality wrong. Some of us have made the choice to love a member of the same gender. Some of us made the choice not to condemn, and to show love and understanding to those people. You're trying to change our choice, to make those in relationships to break up, because you deem it "wrong", and to make those of us supporting our friends to stop it, because YOU find it "Wrong". It shows you as a close-minded individual, one who's not willing to listen to other viewpoints before you discard them totally.
There can be only one being that can totally and absolutely tell us what's wrong, a being of higher power. By that, I'm referring to the one commonly known as "GOD" (Whatever your religion is). Just Remember, the Road to Hell is paved with Good Intentions. (No, I'm not saying that you're going to hell, its just a saying. If you don't get it, assume I placed it there for the fun of it. I do things like that). Other than a Heavenly voice descending upon us to tell us to steer away from Homosexuality, there can be nobody that can tell us, beyond all reasonable doubt, that homosexuality is wrong. Also, I believe that the bible has been misquoted so many times that there is no sure way of knowing EXACTLY what the bible wants unless you know Hebrew and is one of the 12 disciples.
Also, you've been insulting Sam and her friends a fair deal. I'm not too sure how best for an adult to get through to a teenager (After all, I've not had a teenage offspring yet), but as a teenager, I can tell you, that force, insults and general "I'm right, you're wrong" behaviour, is NOT the best way. Actually, my bad, it is the best way. Its the absolute best way, to alienate a teen. Not only a teen, its the absolute best way, to alienate anybody. So lets refrain from personal insults like the mature people we all are, teens and adults alike. Put aside the arrogance, on who's better in English (Like Sam mentioned, just because we're Asian and from Singapore doesn't mean we don't have a good command in English. And to go off topic slightly, I help my Australian, American and British friends to edit their essays all the time) and who is more arrogant/right/wrong/whatever. We're not here to blow our own horns, we're here to discuss this topic of homosexuality. (BTW... "And I am articulate, soulful, well read, informed, knowledgeable, inquisitive, poetic and fluent.......and right !" - Quoted from SKOT is called blowing your own horn)
Okay, now, to dive straight into the mainframe of my post. (Sorry sorry, its gonna be a long one. One worthy of my A level GP Paper >.<)
To clear some misconceptions, nobody is getting "Blind Drunk" or "High'Stoned". We're not discussing alcoholism, We're not discussing the effects and use of drugs. We're discussing Homosexuality. Homosexuality is not linked to Drugs or Alcohol. There are many homosexuals who do not indulge in either. So lets stay on topic, and not make broad biased generalization about the lifestyles of homosexuals.
Also, Nobody, is being Tricked/Forced/Bribed/Blackmailed/Fooled/[Insert Another Synonym here] into supporting friends. Some of my friends are homosexual, and that has NEVER stopped them from giving me support or vice versa. I'm not defending my friends just because they're my friends. But also because I feel that there's alot of misconceptions and generalization surrounding the topic of homosexuality and that they're being unjustly prosecuted for a 'crime' that doesn't exist.
I noticed that this forum, so far, has a fair bit of anti-lesbianism, with the main focus being on girls. What about the guys? We can't leave them out! How about we stop focusing on girls as cute, innocent, pigtailed beings, and focus on Homosexual as a whole? To focus on only lesbianism and not on the gays, is being biased and sexist. Its being arrogant, to assume that males can get away with it and thus, all the heat must be on girls. Its also arrogant and blind, to assume that all girls are innocent and cute and possibly blond pigtailed, on the inside. Most of those girls that are so generically portrayed, are what I call Blond Plastic Bimbos. So lets do everybody a favour and not keep rehashing what 'proper females' are supposed to be like. Innocent, Polite, Modest, Humble, Meek, Submissive to men, Loves Cock etc... We're a diverse society, not a "Add water and mix" carbon copy of what is 'supposed' to be.
Also, I see the word "Indulgent" pop up a few times. That it's being indulgent to engage in homosexual relationships. If that's indulgent, what's sex? o.0. Last time I checked, Human beings have sex for the pleasure. We're one species, apart from Dolphins and Apes (and some other animals I can't remember atm) that engage in sexual behaviour for pleasure. Main reason in the biological sense, is that human females aren't obvious when ovulating (unless you count PMS =P). So, how is homosexual behaviour 'indulgent' at all? Its love, its compassion and its caring. If Homosexuality is 'Indulgent', well, so is sex, and so is eating (most of us don't eat to live anymore, we have all these nice food to indulge in), and so is so many more things. So unless Sex becomes a minor operation in which to conceived a baby and if homosexuality is an indulgent choice/past-time/whatever, then its not all that out of place from the materialistic, self-serving society we're in nowadays.
Samantha has kindly set up this board, so that we can easily communicate. She does not set up her blog and this forum board, as a method to 'promote' lesbianism. We all like debates here, so that's what we'll do. We're not going to point fingers and make wild accusations. Her blog does not consist of 100% Pro-Lesbianism Ads and Campaigns. Its for her to document what she wants. Just like most other blogs are. Trying to read all her posts in a "OMG! ITS PROMOTING LESBIANISM!" way and skewing her posts isn't exactly healthy for anybody, much less fair to Sam.
Also, there's been no reliable source brought to this blog. Since its all personal opinion so far. There's no point saying that you've all the sources in the world, if you do not prove it. You'll need to show the actual source rather than rattle off it 2nd hand. If you just rattle off it, everybody assumes that you take parts of the source, and twist it to your wishes.
" religious, theological and spiritual scripture, every scientific, natural, biological, psychological and medical textbook, every history book, time tested wisdom, conscience, morality, nature, biology, all social and cultural mores, fundamental human nature, our own true mind, soul and conscience." (Quoted from SKOT again)
I'll now rebut a few of SKOT's points on his unnamed sources on why homosexuality is NOT bad. I'm not promoting homosexuality, and I'm not denouncing it. I'm doing what I do best, Sit on the Fence and play both sides.
Religious, Theological and Spiritual scriptures, I'll not even bother. There's so much speculation and debate going on about the reliability of those sources, as well as a number of atheist and agnostics in the world, that I'm not gonna add fuel to THAT Fire. We're not arguing religion here (Even though Religion is a point in the whole debate here).
Scientific - There has never been any scientific proof why Homosexuality is 'bad' and 'harmful'. I'd welcome you to post a few links, or books we may read that is unbiased, and backed with ONLY Scientific proof on why homosexuality is bad.
Natural/Biological - Bonobos, us homosexual behaviour as part of social male bonding. Black Swans, are sometimes homosexual, with male pairing/mating formed. They steal nests, or engage with a threesome with a female, for the eggs. There's quite a few animals in nature that engage in Homosexuality behaviour. I'm not saying it "proves" that homosexuality is "Normal" and "Natural". I'm just saying you can't use the Natural/Biological argument, because animals do it too. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals)
Biological/Medical - The male's prostate gland is located somewhere up his asshole. Therefore, males enjoy anal sex (which female can't exactly give, lacking the right equipment, so other males take over => Gay people => Homosexual People). There is nothing medically wrong with having gay sex, aside from the fact that no biological offspring can be produced. But if its kids you want, you'd better of campaigning against Contraceptives. (http://www.askmen.com/dating/heidi/23_love_secrets.html)
Psychological - Most of us, gravitate towards those we feel safest with. That's why we find that there are some people, we find attractive, and there are some that we don't. Those that we find attractive, generally will have some physical attributes to those that has helped you in the past. Which is why some of us notice some resemblance towards all the crushes we had, be it physical or personality-wise. The only psychological harm to homosexuality, is the reaction of others, and the level of acceptance in self and society.
History - Did you know that most great civilization of the past, The Ancient Egyptian, Ancient Romans, the Aztecs etc, are bisexual? Amazing isn't it? Its only the not-so-old British aristocrats that bring about all these close legged sexual nonos. Why? Because the British Aristocrats pass down their land and titles to their offspring, through the father's line. Hence, women were meant to remain virgins till marriage, to be 100% Sure that they're 'untainted' and that they know EXACTLY who the father was. Whereas men were allowed to be promiscuous. This was seen in the Chinese Arranged Marriage as well. It reminds me of horse breeding, where the mare wasn;t allowed to be mounted except for by the one you want to mate her with. The Greeks used Sex to attain a moment with god. They worship Aphrodite via sex with her priests. Matriarchal society has women having sex whenever they want, because its WAY easier know who the mother was, rather than the father. Point is, history is very promiscuous. If you read past the high school censored textbooks, and watch the history channel once in a while, or research upon history, you'll find that history is FILLED with homosexuality, bisexuality, incest, gang rapes, promiscuous sex etc. Wonder why people are so "Conservative" now. Like I said, I believe it stems from the British Aristocracy, and it spread due to the fact that 'peasants' would like to act like them.
I'm not even gonna bother to contradict the rest unless stated WHAT those 'sources' say. To provide me with a general topic is for me to rebut them without even knowing what I'm rebutting.
I'll just say that yes, I agree that compassion stated in the bible does not indicate for us to lay down and be trodden. But I don't see how homosexuality would need us to act like a human sacrifice. If you're homosexual, you try to find a love from the same gender who is homosexual, and if you're not, you have a much wider pool of people to choose from. There are a hell lot more straight people than there are homosexuals or bisexuals, so I *Really* don't see how it affects you on a biological/social level. If a girl rejects you due to the fact that she's homosexual, just find somebody else. Treat it as what it is, the girl's not interested. Don't blame all homosexuals to high heavens. If I was to reject a guy approaching me because I already have a Boyfriend, I really don't expect the rejected guy to curse my boyfriend to high heavens, then try to murder my boyfriend in hopes of getting me.
Compassion in the bible (if you want to quote the bible) applies to homosexuals. We do NOT have the right to assume who can receive God's love and who shouldn't. Only God can decide that. We do NOT have the right to condemn individuals based on what WE think is correct.
Since when is loving somebody else selfish, conceited and harmful? Better to love than not to love at all.
Okay! Done! Long post OOOOVER! There's more that I can write, but I spent over an hour typing this, and I want to eat lunchie =P.
BTW, Sammy and Cara, HAPPY ANNIVERSARY! XD.